The Region 10 Judge List
For prospective showholders, Elaine Boardway keeps
a list of potential model horse judges. Inclusion on this list
is not a guarantee of availability. If you would like to be included
on this list or have a revision to your information, please email
Elaine at email@example.com
If you know a judge who is not online who would like to be included,
please send her the contact information. She started this list
in the hopes of making things easier for showholders - it is not
complete. This will be posted to Region10 lists and updated here
on a regular basis.
9509 Biddulph Road
Brooklyn OH 44144
I only judged two shows earlier this year (Country Bumpkin Classic
and Walkabout Farms Show). My real horse experience includes showing
in hunter classes with both my pony and my horse. My horses began
training in dressage. Going to college meant no more time for
the real thing. I did end up going to a college with an equestrian
team and I got to ride various horses my Freshman year. Dropped
off the team to concentrate on studies, though. I miss riding
the real thing to this day! My show string's strong points clearly
point to Breyer collectibility. As I love to show (ok, I am addicted
to showing!) I'd prefer to judge custom or custom/resin. Possibly
other OF breed classes. That way I could show OF Breyers. I have
judged plastic custom, custom/resin, and resin classes as well
as the occasional OF plastic which of course I was not entered
in. I also did part of a performance division. I'd prefer
not to judge OF Breyer or OF plastic (where Stone & Breyer
compete) in order to show in those divisions. I do not know much
about the latest fad in resins, which I think is a good thing.
I don't know much about Stones, except for the pony. Same deal
with Hartlands. Chinas I am pretty clueless as well, though I
have a handful of HR minis. With performance, I will admit I need
to study more of the rules, but I am not afraid to ask questions,
consult others, or the NAMHSA judge's handbook. I prefer to have
gas expenses and food provided at the very least. If I need to
stay overnight, I'd like to have that provided as well. I've been
paid nominal amounts as well (like $20) and find that to be reasonable.
I do have allergies to most animals and many outside things. Also
dust ;) With prior notice I can medicate myself (ah, the buzz
of Benadryl!) but prefer not to (as even half a dose makes me
feel goofy).Most importantly, I need to know ahead of time what
my duties will be and the expected divisions to judge as well
as estimated show length.I will come armed with my NAMHSA judge's
handbook to consult should I have any questions regarding an entry.
471-1 Boston Turnpike,
Shrewsbury, MA 01545
I judge anything...but my strengths are in OF and CM, halter and
performance. I can travel, but I would need a place to stay and
some way to get there if it is quite a distance.
755 South Britian Road
Southbury CT 06488
OF/CM halter (better with OF plastics than china!) and perf (English
stronger than Western) More or less available year round, I work
lots of weekends, so need several months lead time if available.
Will travel to most points in New England, New York, New Jersey,
will ask that hotel/gas/and feeding the day of the show be covered.
I am willing to crash on couches/floors/spare beds.
28 Suburban Rd
Clark, NJ 07066
I am willing to travel throughout the state of NJ
60 S. Hamilton St.
Jordan NY 13080 (near Syracuse)
OF, CM, halter, perf.
Available April-Nov - need carpool companion for out-of-state
travel (can usually find a paying entrant to come with me or possibly
another judge). Would prefer expenses be covered and would gladly
sleep on a couch or floor. Have judged at NEMHC, Nutmeg, Baystate,
Kline's Breyer Day, NAN 2001, plus my own show. Have worked in
hunter/jumper barns, taught my horse to drive, and most recently
judged a Trail Trial for real horses.
PO Box 1065 Washington Grove, MD 20880-1065
Experienced in judging in the hobby for 25 years in all divisions,
specialties are custom & resin halter, OF China.Able to judge
anywhere if transportation/lodging can be arranged given enough
advance notice so that I can arrange with my work schedule &
other hobby commitments. Able to drive within 3-4 hours of Washington
DC metro area, possibly further if I can travel with somebody
or be reimbursed for rental car.
95 Prescott Road
Epping, NH 03042
I have been collecting since 1976, showing since 1990, and judging
since 1992. I have judged OF at major shows with very large classes,
including: Breyerfest, NESE, MAR, NEMHC, New England Breyer Brunch,
etc. I am very strong in OF (plastic and china) collectability,
breed/conformation, performance and collector's class. I prefer
not to do customs or foal classes. Will judge novice. I will travel
a distance to shows in New England, NJ, and eastern PA/NY. Other
areas may be considered. If more than 3-4 hours driving time,
I would need a place to bunk, but I am OK with sharing a room
with other showers if necessary.
I will judge in exchange for travel expenses, lunch, and the OF
show special model. I don't like to go home empty handed from
a show. I like to have a model to remember the event by.
I am skilled at verbal explanations of judging methods for novice
groups. I will do lectures on model horses for local groups such
as 4-H, tack shops, and other organizations. I will do lectures
in exchange for new OF model horses or by other arrangement. Discounts
offered to 4-H groups.
15 Vineyard Place
North Easton, MA 02356
OF/CM Halter and Performance no Collectability or Workmanship
*Yet!*Very knowledgable of many breed standards and the "modern"
show horse (active with real stock horses and Arabs), so I am
limited to Breed Halter and Performance in both OF and CM. I do
not feel qualified yet to judge OF Collectability or CM Workmanship.
Will travel just about anywhere with about 3.5 hours. If further
I would have to fly. Only things I need are gas money, food (VERY
important!) and a place to sleep (ex: couches, floors, guest rooms...just
not my own car;-)) I like to show as well, so a table would be
27-A Clover Street
Waterbury CT 06706
OF halter and collectibility are my strong points...26 years of
Breyer history in my family. ;) CM halter and workmanship can
also be covered. China halter is fine but china collectibility
is out of my league. I would need at least 2 months notice as
I do work weekends. Travel to Mass
and New Jersey. Would appreciate gas expense and something to
eat...will handle my own lodging if necessary.
1090 Main Street
South Windsor CT 06074
Showing Appaloosas regionally has been a huge part of my life
ever since I could walk, and I have many years of horse experience
in both stock and light breeds. I have been a collector for as
long as I can remember and have been customizing seriously since
'96, although I've tinkered with it since I was around 12. I prefer
to judge custom, either halter or performance. I am front central
CT, and am willing to travel to RI, Mass... my max is about an
hour and a half to 2 hours away, and I'm willing to carpool.
1836 Daniels St
Kissimmee FL 34746-4041
Have been judging models for close to 17 yrs. I raise, train and
show real Paint horses on a national level. I have extensive experience
with both live and model horses. Strong points: Stock horses in
all areas, generally all breeds and disciplines, specializing
in stock horse performace. I am well versed in all breeds, and
standards. Performance wise I prefer western but can do huntseat
as well. Would prefer not to judge dressage. Judged at Breyerfest,
NAN and shows in Florida. Compensation: For local shows, hotel
room, gas and meals. I prefer driving to stay in the southern
area, but if they will
foot airfare I can fly.
Valerie Della Vecchia
258 N 2nd Avenue 2nd Floor
Manville NJ 08835
2 hours travel time is about my limit for judging but I have been
know to go 2 1/2-3. It depends on the time of year, how much personal
time I have left and if there are other divisions I can show in.
I judge Novice, harness, western Performance, OF Halter, China
Halter, RRH and Resin Halter.
2907 Bloom Rd
Danville, PA 17821
Hello! I have been involved with real horses and showing all my
started at age 2 riding TWHs and was featured in the VOICE OF
THE TWH at age
4 for being the youngest independant rider on a BIG-LICK Walker.
I have shown English, jumping, gaming, trail, western, pleasure,
halter, showmanship and saddle seat. I also won the FFA STATE
competition 2 years concurrently. I also placed 2nd at the PENN
juding competition. I have been model showing 5 years and moved
into the OPEN division at age 14 very successfully! I started
judging NAN qualifing shows last year. I feel
very comfortable with OF and CM breeds and western and english
I usually judge in exchange for food, show fee, model, gas...almost
can be worked out. Would rather travel with
Ellen Derr as a team of judges. :)
2907 Bloom Rd
Danville, PA 17821
I have been very active in the real horse world all my life. I
trainers license for TWH for 8 years. I have shown all aspects
from pleasure to rodeo. I have shown lightly in jumping and English
(forward seat). I having been showing models for 5 years and judging
for 4 at many NAN
qualifing shows. My strong points are performance except for dressage
I am currently studing. I love OF and CM halter. I have judged
a few Resin
halter divisions but feel this is not my strong point...YET!
I am known for "moving along" and not wasting time between
dispise shows that run 'WWWAAAAAAAAAAAYYYY BEHIND' schedule.
I will drive up to 2 hours away. I usually judge in exchange for
and free entry fee or model. I would consider traving/flying farther
lodging/expenses were offered also. My daughter also judges as
well as my
best friend, Bobbi Devine. We could be a 3 for 1 package!
128 E. Swatara Dr. Jonestown, PA 17038
I have been judging shows for the last two years, 3 of which have
been NAN qualifying shows. I have been collecting for 20 years,
and I am willing to judge all facets of model horse showing, with
halter classes my forte. I can do performance as well. I will
generally drive up to 5 or 6 hours to a show. Gas reimbursement
and lodging would be nice in exchange for judging unless other
arrangements are made.
4857 Snake Road
Business phone-(724)-932-2633(Voice mail)
I have been actively involved in the hobby for 20 years . I've
been around real horses since I970. I have been collecting since
1975,and I actually started showing in 1983
I have Experience in judging all types of divisions including
China and specialty china classes,Resin, Custom,and OF Plastic
in that order.I Love China Horses and am an avid collector of
Hagen Renakers. Breed Type & Conformation are my strong points
on resins and Customs.
Rarity and collectibilty on Chinas.Breed type or collectibility
on Plastic. I enjoy judging Performance and know all aspects of
showing and riding. Prefer China/customs or foal classes. I Love
to judge novice.
I don't fly without a traveling partner a paid ticket and a Blind-
fold(LOL) Able to judge within an 8 hour drive from Northwest
PA,Northeast Ohio. Lodging and/or gas compensation kindly appreciated.
I am Always willing to help out.
Other hobby commitments keep me busy , but I have been known to
drop everything just to help out a fellow showholder.
I usually travel to NY,Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, possibly further
... I currently raise small riding ponies,and have raise and bred
Reg. Belgians in the past.
I also have shown Arabians, Morgans, Appaloosas,Hackney Ponies,
American Saddlebreds,TWH (Both plantation and Big Lick), POA and
Quarter Horses on a Regional and National level.
I have judged many shows including NAN, Stone Shows,4-H model
shows,Walkabout Farms,Baystate,Horses for Hospice,Pa September
Classic and PA Classic(The last 3 shows I coordinated.)
I have a pretty extensive resume-If you need more information.
I also am interested in helping shows with small donations and
If it's for a Good cause -I'm there-LOL
13274 Country Ridge Dr
Germantown, MD 20874
Have judged live horse shows (halter, performance) as well as
model shows. Breeder/Owner of National Champion and Silver Medallion
Prefer judging performance (Resin/CM/OF) or Resin/CM halter. No
My strong points are western pleasure and performance, pleasure
driving and obstacle, buckboard driving, and English hunt seat.
References upon request.
I can travel but prefer to judge within a 100 mile radius of my
Currently not charging for services if I am allowed to show in
Halter (assuming I'm not judging halter), the show is within the
100 mile radius, and being fed is a nice bonus!
Rome NY 13442
Many years experience in all divisions of model horse showing
6135 Franz Lane
Cochranton, PA 16314
I would happily judge any division, however my specialty is performance.
have judged real and model shows and have a resume' upon request.
(October till mid January) are very difficult for me because of
a heavy work
schedule then, almost every other time of year is OK. I appreciate
expenses being paid and am willing to work with shows to help
down. I'm also happy to do tack/showing clinics.
P.O. box 816,
Wiscasset ME 04578.
I've been collecting since 1979. I stared showing models in 1993,and
judging shortly after. I have judged at many New England show
and once at NAN. I feel my judging strengths are OF plastic (collectability,
breed/conformation,performance,and collector's class)and resin
halter and performance. I have an extensive and varied "real"
horse background. I have owned and shown "real" horse
since 1982, in many different disciplines including:saddleseat,hunters(flat/over
fences) western pleasure,jumper,dressage,eventing,games,combined
driving,and many different breeds in halter(currently involved
in appaloosas). I'm willing to travel most anywhere if i can carpool
with other showers/judges. I will judge for travel/lodging expenses,lunch,and
OF models (Show Special or others).
Heather "Lexi" Gnidovec
55 Glenn Dr
Pataskala, Oh 43062
(Approx. 3 hours from Pittsburgh.)
I can judge anything, but feel most comfortable with OF &
CM halter. I have a very flexible schedule and I love to travel.
I would need a place to stay and compensation for gas.
87 Oakland Street
Medway MA 02053-1333
I like to judge performance and CM halter but can judge OF halter
if I have to.
PO Box 914
Shillington, PA 19607
Experienced in all venues of judging. I judge by quality
, correctness, and condition. Willing to travel to any areas.
Prefer help with travel expenses and lodging. Always willing to
compromise. I have judged many shows from small State 4-H shows
to NAN in 2001. Prefer NAN Qualifying shows. I have been involved
in the hobby since 91 officially. I have collected since 1968.
Mostly, I prefer to paint resins.
17 49 North Union St
Middletown, PA 17057-0351
Lifetime spent breeding, raising & showing hunters, and riding
to hounds in USA and Europe 17 yrs showing & teaching Sidesaddle,
15 yrs certified Sidesaddle Judge/Instructor with International
Sidesaddle Organization; 10 yrs professional Horse Show photography
8 yrs Combined Training. Familiar with Racing and Polo. Several
yrs experience with Draft and Light Harness Breeds, Light Breed
Show horses, and Iberian Horses. Model Horse Collector since 1950's.
6 yrs live-showing model horses. 6 yrs model horse tack maker
& photographer. Prefer judging: All Performance Division classes,
and OF Plastics Philosophy: Same as judging a real horse show
- I like show people to have a good time showing, maybe learn
something new, leave a show feeling good about their efforts,
and looking forward to their next show with enthusiasm! Limits
and compensation: Currently, mileage and meals will do me, fine.
Right now I prefer to stay within a a
3-hour radius of Harrisburg, PA. But will consider travelling
further, if circumstances warrant.
10734 Sisson Highway
North Collins, NY 14111
Fairly new to judging but I have been collecting for over 30 years
and live-showing for over 20 years. Qualified to judge Halter
(no Performance, sorry), especially OF Plastic and OF China/Resin.
I have an older van so I'd prefer to limit my driving to within
a 4-hour radius of the Buffalo, NY area unless I have a travel
companion. No problems with flying, as long as travel/hotel expenses
are covered. I'll sometimes vend and/or show a bit in other divisions,
so a table is appreciated.
519 Woodrow Ave
Endicott, NY 13760-2275
I am best known for collecting and successfully live showing original
finish models namely BREYER. I LOVE my original finishes especially
the plastics...Breyers, Hartland, Stones, and I'm trying to keep
current with most/all releases!!! I also collect and enjoy the
chinas/porcelains/resins, ie, Royal Worcesters, Hagen-Renakers,
AA, BFA, etc... At this time, my main interest is in judging Halter
classes. Restrictions in my schedule include the fact that I unfortunately
work every other weekend at a hospital laboratory, so this greatly
limits that shows that I can even attend! Sometimes I can switch
weekends with proper notice and department coverage.
109 Phinney Rd
Fulton NY 13069
(contact for more info)
26 Westminster Ave.
Greensburg, PA 15601
I have been collecting actively since 1978 and have been showing
for about 4 years. I really enjoy judging Chinas and OFs - halter
collectibility. I work with kids on a daily basis so Beginner
and Novice divisions are fine too.
I have judged at NAN 2002, several Greater Pittsburgh Model Horse
Shows, Stone Age Live, Peach State Live, and Toys on the Square.
travel anywhere as long as travel expenses are paid. I'm not picky
about sleeping arrangements, I can crash on the couch/floor.
556 Meetinghouse Road
Harleysville, PA, 19438
I have been riding real horses and collecting since age 5, showing
10, attended my first NAN at age 12 (where all my horses placed
Top Ten =)
Very experienced and knowledgeable about OF models,ranging from
Breyer to HRs
and Royal Worcesters, BFA, etc. I was the Junior 4-H Horse Judging
(which is real horse confirmation judging) - I typically judge
confirmation/breed standards, part on condition and part taking
rarity and collectability. I am located in SE Pennsylvania and
can travel up
to 3 hours, I kindly request gas compensation and models are my
am extremely flexible and will work out almost anything - I'm
in this because
I love it =) No allergies, the more critters the happier I am!
PO Box 38
Boonsboro, Maryland 21713
OF Halter OF Performance - Plastic and breakables -
Pee Wee, Novice & Open
Available all year but need advance notice. Will judge in MD,
VA, DE, S. Central, PA, Eastern, WV. Other locations may be considered.
Prefer expenses be paid. Also available for real horse shows --
unrated, schooling, hunter trials, 4-H, Pony club, low-level dressage,
fence judge, etc.
615 Highland Way
Hagerstown, MD 21740
Will judge most anything OF and CM/Resin. I'm stronger in OF Plastic
than china and in English more than Western. Have judged consistently
for the last several years, including NAN and Breyerfest and also
judge schooling and 4-H shows as well. Have been live showing
in halter & performance myself for over 15 years and have
been campaigning my real TB for the last 3. Will drive most anywhere
within 4-5 hours and prefer food/gas/hotel covered. Happy to sleep
on couch or floor :) I work every other weekend so would need
some notice to change my schedule.
Bernadette M Mentesana
315 W. Berwick St.
Easton, Pa. 18042
In hobby for 30+ years. Prefer judging O.F. and Artist Resins,
halter and performance. Not very familiar with Chinas.
Real horse experience include: Riding Huntseat and Western, Studying
Equine Science and Volunteering at an Equine Rescue twice weekly.
Certified Equine Sports Massage Therapist so Anatomy Knowledge
Light judging experience but I've been live showing for nearly
a decade. Willing to travel 3-5 hours. In return for judging:
models, hotel fees if necessary, gas, or dinner.
I don't cost much, just like judging for more experience.
3251 Conway Wallrose Road
Baden, PA 15005-2313
Would prefer to judge Custom or Performance, but have judged other
divisions as well. Very knowledgeable in performance events (I
have been showing real horses for about 14 years now, and currently
ride at the National and World levels with my stock horses in
versatility events) and knowledgeable about conformation as well
from years of being on a (real) Horse Judging team. Availability
depends on time of year would prefer a few months notice
if possible to line schedules up. Will travel anywhere, but would
prefer to fly if further than 3-4 hours away from my home in western
PA. I would like to have all expenses paid rooming with
a roomful of
people doesn't bother me and I don't eat much. ;) I am asthmatic
and have allergies, so I'm unable to stay around cigarette smoke
8 Colony Drive Cortland NY 13045
Able to judge custom or performance divisions.
PO Box 327
Sharon, PA 16146
Retired Veterinarian Technician, so breed standards/conformation
are my strong points. Can judge any halter divisions (preference
is resins). Experienced judge (including my own show). I
can travel to Region 10 or Region 9 and will car pool (as long
as I'm driving). Prefer for gas & hotel to be taken
care of by the show holder. I have no problems sharing a
hotel room with other judges (no smoking room please).
225 Ridge Street
Glens Falls, NY 12801
I have many years of real horse owning, showing, Dressage and
Eventing, English and Western, training, teaching and judging
(4-H, schooling and Open shows) experience before I started Model
Horses. I have an AAS degree in Equine studies and a BS and MS
in Education. I started Model horse collecting in 1992 and have
been learning ever since. I will judge anything, I prefer Performance
(OF or CM), will also do Halter and Novice. I can travel throughout
New England, New York and nearby! Prefer gas money and/or entry
fees paid to show in divisions not judging, and my son's entry
fee paid. September is usually not possible, unless it is close
81 Brett Lane
Enfield, CT 06082
I have been an active member in the real horse society for 17
years. Owned numerous horses from birth to aging. Skilled western
rider, and pleasure english. Adverse in noticing confirmation
flaws and proper breed dipicions. I believe all horses should
be judged equal, disregard who the artist is and how 'expensive'
that horse is, and judge fairly upon breed, quality, confirmation,
discpline, and if the horse is a good contribution to the model
horse field. I have been a model horse customizer for the past
2 years now. I've learned through my mistakes, and have grown
from them. I would like to further my horizon in the customized
field and start judging CM halter and peformance.
P.O. Box 493
Camden, Maine 04843
Willing to travel in New England to judge, would consider others
if I can schedule. Have been
judging for about 20 years. Comfortable judging just about anything.
Halter & performance. O.F., CM, Etc. Novice, Open....
Judy Renee Pope
PO Box 1065
Washington Grove, MD 20880-1065
Also long time hobbyist experienced in judging, able to travel
with Liz Bouras (two for one!)
30 Cooper St.
West Springfield, MA 01089
I'm relatively new to judging, but have been involved in the hobby
and actively showing and customizing for many years. I also have
a lot of real horse experience. I feel most comfortable judging
performance, CM halter, novice, and foals- no OF plastic or china!
I'm available most weekends, unless there is another show in the
area I'd like to attend. I am willing to drive
about 3-4 hours, and fly anywhere. I prefer that my travel expenses/mileage
is paid, and lunch is provided.
Browns Mills NJ
Experience: Have owned and shown real horses for about
10 years, model horses since the early 80's, most recently in
the United Kingdom and Germany. Own a real (and very lively) warmblood
stallion. Have very good knowledge of English, Dressage, Driving
(light and heavy), saddleseat and racing. Can judge Western, but
not my favorite. Love to judge costume (Arab and other). Don't
mind judging halter. Am familiar with many breeds- especially
warmbloods. I am active duty USAF, so I need plenty of advance
warning so I can take leave for the show. I don't mind driving
a couplehours- I live in central NJ (McGuire AFB). Would appreciate
reimbursement and maybe a meal or two. Have no problem crashing
on a couch if needed. Prefer to do judging during the summer-
longer days make travel easier. Cannot judge in later September-
Dressage at Devon takes precedence!
122 Brandy Brook Road
North Scituate, RI 02857
no seasonal restrictions can travel up to about 3 hours in any
direction if accompanied by someone else, about an hour alone-avoid
hotel stays and would rather arrive early on showday any division,
big performance nut but show in all divisions! I've only judged
small live shows(well, giant photo shows)because of my aforementioned
addiction to *showing* :<), but should be able to talk myself
into more in the future!
3529 Woodlake Drive
Allison Park, PA 15101
I have judging experience in both OF and CM Halter as well as
performance. I have been collecting for 25 years, showing for
15 years, and judging for 10 years. I am willing to travel up
to 5 hours driving distance from Pittsburgh, further if I have
a travel companion. Will fly if travel is paid for. Prefer reimbursement
for gas and a place to stay. Prefer a month's notice in advance.
566 Round Hill Road
Greenwich, CT 06831
I'm new to judging, but am actively seeking opportunities to judge
OF Plastic Breed or Collectibility. These are my strong points
in which I have been very active these last five years and in
which I have achieved a considerable amount of success. I am usually
available any weekend, and prefer to travel within 3 hours from
home as I prefer to travel to and from the same day. Providing
gas money and lunch would be much appreciated!
Rachel Stacy (was Danculovich)
416 Kojun Ct
Sterling VA 20147
Available including short notice for about a 4 hour radius possibly
from washington DC. Available anytime for the most part that doesn't
conflict with a finals week at George Mason. Will judge Anything
out, but prefer OF, collectability, or Novice. Working on building
judying resume so will judge for cheep :) or free :) depending
on how far
I have to go. Also if I go to a show normally I drag others with
:) If you
have a judge cancel, I might be able to help out :) I check my
at least, normally every few hours. I'm relatively new to the
been trying to show as much as possible. I'm originally from Minnesota.
major live show judging things under my belt yet. just some real
stuff and alot of photo shows.
ShowHolder : Tally-Ho LiveApril '03
229 Greene Rd
Greenfield Center, NY 12833
I judge any performance and custom and OF plastic finish. I prefer
not to do chinas although I will in a pinch. I'm not that familiar
with the chinas
1001 Poppy Place
Jackson, NJ 08527-2587
Collector for 26 years of various makes of model horses that include
(Plastic) Breyer, Hartland, Stone, Marx as well as (China): Hagen
Beswick, Royal Doulton, Lefton, Shafford, Napcoware, Enesco etc.
Shower since 1985; Live shower since 1987; Customizing since 1988;
since 1997 from 4-H level to Open Show level. Strengths: OF Halter;
China-esp. Hagen Renakers; Performance -(western discipline way
than huntseat & harness) Can do Custom & Resin if needed.
I am familiar
with breed standards for the more common breeds (esp. stock horses)
I prefer to attend shows within a 3-hour radius(2-hour if traveling
Prefer if gas/food & expenses paid. Can crash on couch/floor
necessary.<<am allergic to dogs though :o( >>
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